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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 56 post(s)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 223	Posted - 2014.04.16 09:05:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: Aliventi wrote: Quote: Reduce copy time on all blueprints to be less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it. This gives the option to use blueprint copies to build items at Starbases without risking the original. Any chance this would also apply to T2 BPOs? Right now it takes longer to make a copy than to just manufacture from the BPO. It would be a great way for a new market to spring up around T2 BPO BPCs and make it easier for new people to get in to T2 manufacturing without having to get in to invention. That's the current plan, yes. That's a plan? Having a handful of players that have items from a discontinued mechanics dating back more than 5 years ago controll the market of T2 BPCs is an actual plan? Wow. Mass printing of T2 BPCs will not "make it easier for new people to get in to T2 manufacturing", but make it harder if not impossible for new players to get into T2 invention if they expect to have any profit from it. In fact, new players are not the only ones affected by this but all players that do not have T2 BPOs. Unless there is a substantial ISK cost for the process of copying T2 BPOs to make them less profitable than investing actual gameplay effort, skills and ISK to invent an item, this is a horrible idea. The only reason why I and many others were indifferent about T2 BPOs even existing in the game several years after the way to obtain them was discontinued was that inventors COULD compete with the owners of T2 BPOs. If this goes through that would not be possible any more. In fact, while you're at re-hauling industry and removing legacy stuff that is several years old and don't serve the originally intended purpose - then why not consider removing T2 BPOs and compensating the owners in some way? For example, turning T2 BPOs into T2 BPCs with infinite runs. Or introducing a chance of unsuccessful copy like we have in invention. I really hope you will look into this problem and not just go through with it like it was done when nullsec anomalies were nerfed. That one really backfired on the game and on CCP. This one will as well. My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 223	Posted - 2014.04.16 09:29:00 - [2] - Quote Tippia wrote: Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: That's a plan? Having a handful of players that have items from a discontinued mechanics dating back more than 5 years ago controll the market of T2 BPCs is an actual plan? Wow. Mass printing of T2 BPCs will not "make it easier for new people to get in to T2 manufacturing", but make it harder if not impossible for new players to get into T2 invention if they expect to have any profit from it. In fact, new players are not the only ones affected by this but all players that do not have T2 BPOs. Again, for any item where invention is currently worth-while, BPOs are insignificant and don't control anything. You can tell that to a player who didn't have contacts with a person who monopolized Nighthawk and Invu field production for years (among many other things). The fact is I know those who own pretty impressive collections of T2 BPOs and I know how they operate. Yes, it would make easier for a MANUFACTURER to get into T2 production, but at a cost of driving INVENTORS out of the business and out of the game. T2 BPOs can not be obtained any more - the way to obtain them was removed from the game many years ago. The game now functions on a different mechanics - invention. And all industrial players apart from a lucky (or wealthy) few are playing the game by these currently active rules and mechanics. The investment is several months of gameplay, skill training, planning, organisational efforts, forming corporations and ultimately paying for a subscription in order to master a field like Invention that relies on game mechanics that have been active for several years just to be kicked out of the market by a handful of players that are still milking the mechanics that was discontinued all those years in the past and are not part of the current mechanics whatsoever. That is certainly not a wise business decision. My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 223	Posted - 2014.04.16 10:19:00 - [3] - Quote Tippia wrote: Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: You can tell that to a player who didn't have contacts with a person who (practically) monopolized Nighthawk and Invu field production for years (among many other things). The fact is I know those who own pretty impressive collections of T2 BPOs and I know how they operate. And the way they operate is that for any item worth inventing, they have no control over the market. They have no ability to drive anyone out of the market for those items GÇö old or new GÇö because they lack the production capacity to do so. Nighthawks is one of those low-volume items that are hardly even worth it with a BPO; invulns is one of those high-volume items where inventors have absolutely no problems making a profit. Quote: T2 BPOs can not be obtained any more Sure they can. Just buy one. It's a pretty lousy business decision, though, since they're not all that good for large-scale production. Heh... the production capacity is not an issue. It haven't been in the past either. But I can see where your assumption comes from. The base of your logic is that a player has a T2 BPO and that the volume is not enough to fill or control the market. But, I'm talking about a single player here with 20+ accounts and dozens of T2 BPOs of the same type. Put several players like that in an entity (like a corporation or alliance) and you'll get market control (yes, those are actual persons and not some hypothetical situation... and no, I'm not naming them). I was there while it was happening and I can assure you that they HAD control over the market in the past and they will have it again if the opportunity like what is going to happen in the summer expansion arrives. And yeah... good luck obtaining enough T2 BPOs by buying them to even think of competing on the market. And even if you had enough ISK to do that, do you really think that you'd be simply able to go to the Buy Orders section of the forum and just ask for it and be flooded with offers? Market control is not something an individual is willing to sell - for any amount of ISK. Especially if it's centered around a game mechanics that have been removed for years. Additionally, your argument is still missing the fact that the majority of industrial players play by one rules for years and the handful of players are milking the game mechanics that was discontinued a long time ago). My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 224	Posted - 2014.04.16 10:52:00 - [4] - Quote Tippia wrote: Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: Heh... the production capacity is not an issue. It haven't been in the past either. But I can see where your assumption comes from. The base of your logic is that a player has a T2 BPO and that the volume is not enough to fill or control the market. But, I'm talking about a single player here with 20+ accounts and dozens of T2 BPOs of the same type. GÇªand their production capacity is not nearly enough to push out inventors from the market. They're not assumptions GÇö they're a matter of recorded fact. Again, if it's worth inventing, inventors control the market and there is nothing the BPO holders can do about it any more. Those days are long gone. The summer expansion does not change this in any way. Quote: Additionally, your argument is still missing the fact that the majority of industrial players play by one rules for years and the handful of players are milking the game mechanics that was discontinued a long time ago). If by GÇ£milkingGÇ¥ you mean GÇ£make far less ISK than if they could produce at high volumeGÇ¥ then yes. It's not a particularly intuitive interpretation of the word, though. No, I'm not missing it. I'm saying that it is pretty much irrelevant on the scale of things GÇö most BPO holders these days still haven't paid off their initial investment, and likely never will unless they can find a seller to take on the debt. If it was possible in the past to control the market and make things less profitable to inventors by simply manufacturing the items from T2 BPOs, it would clearly not be a problem to do the same if the T2 BPO copying speed gets boosted. You see a chance for cheap T2 BPCs (although that only has a significant potential to ruin the game for the inventors), and I see the potential for expansion of manufacturing capabilities of those who already own neat amounts of T2 BPOs. Increasing copy speeds and making it worthwhile to copy AND manufacture from T2 BPOs will only make market control more easy for those who already had the means to do it in the past. The BPO holders that you are talking about obtained their BPOs by buying them of the market. Those are low volumes of single BPOs exchanged for insane amounts of ISK between individuals and are not a part of the main T2 BPO pool - those are just peripheral trades by those who thought that they can compete (but they really can't). As I said, those who control what happens with the majority of T2 BPOs and how T2 BPOs are really affecting the game are not willing to go on the market. After all why would they. My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 227	Posted - 2014.04.16 10:56:00 - [5] - Quote Bad Bobby wrote: Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: Heh... the production capacity is not an issue. It haven't been in the past either. But I can see where your assumption comes from. The base of your logic is that a player has a T2 BPO and that the volume is not enough to fill or control the market. But, I'm talking about a single player here with 20+ accounts and dozens of T2 BPOs of the same type. Put several players like that in an entity (like a corporation or alliance) and you'll get market control (yes, those are actual persons and not some hypothetical situation... and no, I'm not naming them). I was there while it was happening and I can assure you that they HAD control over the market in the past and they will have it again if the opportunity like what is going to happen in the summer expansion arrives. And yeah... good luck obtaining enough T2 BPOs by buying them to even think of competing on the market. And even if you had enough ISK to do that, do you really think that you'd be simply able to go to the Buy Orders section of the forum and just ask for it and be flooded with offers? Market control is not something an individual is willing to sell - for any amount of ISK. Especially if it's centered around a game mechanics that have been removed for years. Additionally, your argument is still missing the fact that the majority of industrial players play by one rules for years and the handful of players are milking the game mechanics that was discontinued a long time ago). These game mechanics where not removed or discontinued. The T2 BPOs are still here and fully functional. Like many areas of EVE we are all given many alternative ways to achieve the same end result and we can each choose which way suits us. Just because this isn't the way you choose to do it does not make the alternatives wrong, evil or unbalanced. Yes there has been a long history of T2 BPOs dominating various markets at various times and for various reasons. That problem has become less and less with each passing rebalance, as the breadth of demand for T2 products increases. The best solution for whatever remains of that problem is to continue with the rebalancing. So you can still, without investing tens or hundreds of billions of ISK (disregarding the fact that owners won't sell their profitable stock in the first place) and by using an active game mechanic actually play the game and get the T2 BPO the same way others have done it more than 5 years ago? Great, do you mind pointing out where can I do that? My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 227	Posted - 2014.04.16 11:08:00 - [6] - Quote Tippia wrote: Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: If it was possible in the past See, here's the thing: we're not in the past any more. Quote: to control the market and make things less profitable to inventors by simply manufacturing the items from T2 BPOs, it would clearly not be a problem to do the same if the T2 BPO copying speed gets boosted. Yes it will, because the copying speed will not increase their production capacity to any greater degree. I think you might be overestimating what GÇ£less time consuming than manufacturing something out of itGÇ¥ means. It doesn't mean that you can churn out 100 runs worth of BPCs instead of running 10 manufacturing jobs; it will mean that you can churn out 11 or 12 runs rather than directly manufacture 10. It's not going to multiply how many units they can produce many times over GÇö it's going to add maybe one or two per production run. The speed increase is there to make it so you can keep your BPOs safe and use copies rather than direct manufacturing, and slightly compensate for the delays and logistics with carting all those copies over to your manufacturing POS GÇö it's not there to boost the actual manufacturing output. Quote: I see the potential for expansion of manufacturing capabilities of those who already own neat amounts of T2 BPOs. Increasing copy speeds and making it worthwhile to copy AND manufacture from T2 BPOs will only make market control more easy for those who already had the means to do it in the past. The only thing worth-while is still production. The difference is that you'll be producing from your own copies rather than from the BPO. That is all. That GÇ£increaseGÇ¥ will keep their (complete lack of) market control at exactly the same levels as today. Add a new account with 3 manufacturers... There: production capacity increased by 33 slots. And since it's faster to copy than to produce now, the only limit of how big you want to go is how much free time you have at your disposal. Currently, the cap is set hard to the amount of T2 BPOs that you own... well, with these changes - not any more. And the best part is - you're hardly investing any ISK or effort while doing it. My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 227	Posted - 2014.04.16 12:31:00 - [7] - Quote Tippia wrote: Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: Add a new account with 3 manufacturers... There: production capacity increased by 33 slots. GÇªwhich won't be able to produce any faster than the BPO already could. That Invuln II blueprint will go from taking 213 hours to produce a batch of 100 and, what, 500 hours(?) to make a 100-run copy to taking 213 hours to produce a batch of 100 and taking 200 hours to make a 100-run copy GÇö not enough to dominate any markets, but enough to make it worth-while to use the copies in a production POS. Sure, you could make 10 10-run copies instead and run those 10 copies in parallel. It'll still take 200 hours to do so and while the end product comes out quicker during the production step, you are then idling while the next batch of copies is being researched. The number of runs you can squeeze out of the BPO per time period won't really change. Quote: Currently, the cap is set hard to the amount of T2 BPOs that you own... well, with these changes GÇªthe cap will be pretty much exactly the same. You really don't see how printing blueprints faster than you can use them is an opportunity for expanding you capacity to manufacture if you employ more slots/alts? And no, you will not have any idle time. Let's take an example where copying is 10% faster than manufacturing - 9 hours to make a 10 run BPC and 10 hours to produce 10 items from said BPC. Here's a quick time flow: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1404/runs.jpg You have 10 blueprint copiers? A new manufacturing alt can be spawned at the end of pictured cycle. That's an example of just 10% difference. With, for example, 20% it's even faster to employ new alts. My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 227	Posted - 2014.04.16 12:49:00 - [8] - Quote Tippia wrote: Quote: None of this doesn't change the fact that T2Bpo's are an outdated and broken mechanic that pulls a vast sum of ISK into the hands of a very few players at the expense of the entire marketplace. It's not really a fact, though, nor is it any different from how any other manufacturing works. That's just a troll, to be honest. For any other manufacturing activity you can obtain needed materials and tools by playing the game and not using the market whatsoever. T2 BPOs were belonging to that group a long time ago until that feature has been discontinued. You can not under any circumstances obtain T2 BPOs like any other necessary material or tool for any other type of production. The ONLY exception are NPC SEEDED T1 blueprints that you must buy from the market at a fixed price. They are ALWAYS available to ANYONE who is willing to buy them in an UNLIMITED quantity. You want T2 blueprints to be the same as any other industry item in the game - then either make them obtainable through gameplay like they were before, which current owners are exploiting (not an "exploit - exploit" in terms of game rule breaking btw) or seed them by NPCs on the market like T1 BPOs are. Until then, yes - they are much different from any other manufacturing activity in the game. And yes - players that have obtained them by using a discontinued game mechanics HAVE an unfair advantage over all other players simply because of the fact that they are profiting from a game mechanic that is not available to players any more. My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 227	Posted - 2014.04.16 12:57:00 - [9] - Quote Tippia wrote: Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: And yes - players that have obtained them by using a discontinued game mechanics HAVE an unfair advantage over all other players simply because of the fact that they are profiting from a game mechanic that is not available to players any more. Not really, no. It's just an advantage GÇö one that almost anyone can acquire if they're a bit daft. It is far from an unfair one. Until there is a possibility to obtain T2 BPOs like there was before, the unfair advantage will always be there. You can play with words and semantics, but this fact remains. My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 227	Posted - 2014.04.16 13:12:00 - [10] - Quote Tippia wrote: Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: Until there is a possibility to obtain T2 BPOs like there was before, the unfair advantage will always be there. You can play with words and semantics, but this fact remains. The fact is that it's not unfair. It is available to anyone who wants to (stupidly) throw their money at such a low-ROI investment. Moreover, any advantage BPOs offer can be countered by the many advantages invention offer. Like Akita T said, it offers an advantage, but that does not mean that the advantage is insurmountable or unfair or in any way out of whack with what other advantages you can buy yourself. The fact is that among the many advantages available to industrialists, it's a pretty bad one to have on the scale of things. Have a look at the post above your. I have only covered one aspect of making inventions unprofitable. There are other things mentioned in this dev blog that will further affect the viability of invention. And all those issues and game breaking changes for many regular industrial characters are happening because of a legacy support of a discontinued part of the gameplay that haven't been available to players for more than five years. That's truly an "excellent" way of balancing the game. My signature got stolen (o.0)

Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 227	Posted - 2014.04.16 13:16:00 - [11] - Quote Miktek wrote: At the moment I use my own BPOs that I copy in my corps POS, I drag the BPOs to a corp hanger in a station, set the copy jobs and collect from the POS. will this still be a valid method of copying or will I now have to physically take the BPOs to the POS in order to start the copy jobs? You will have to take the BPO to the POS in order to copy it. Quote from devblog: Remove the ability for players to use stations to safely store their blueprints without putting them at risk in Starbase structures. Players will still be able to start their jobs remotely (via the use of Supply Chain Management and Scientific Networking skills), but will now have to move their blueprints directly into the starbase structures that require it, like other materials. My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 227	Posted - 2014.04.16 13:25:00 - [12] - Quote Tippia wrote: Quote: Basically, you are damaging the currently active game mechanic in order to support a legacy one that does not exist any more. It still exists, though, and in many forms so of course they should support it. If they should happen to fix other mechanics at the same time, then it's a definite bonus. The ability to obtain a T2 BPO in a lottery certainly does not exist any more and I know you know that as well. My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 227	Posted - 2014.04.16 13:32:00 - [13] - Quote Bad Bobby wrote: Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: Tippia wrote: Quote: Basically, you are damaging the currently active game mechanic in order to support a legacy one that does not exist any more. It still exists, though, and in many forms so of course they should support it. If they should happen to fix other mechanics at the same time, then it's a definite bonus. The ability to obtain a T2 BPO in a lottery certainly does not exist any more and I know you know that as well. I can start a lottery for one of my T2 BPOs if that would make you feel better. Likewise, I know that you know as well what kind of lottery I was talking about. My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 227	Posted - 2014.04.16 13:34:00 - [14] - Quote Tippia wrote: Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: The ability to obtain a T2 BPO in a lottery certainly does not exist any more and I know you know that as well. Ok, but if that's what you're referring to, they're also not damaging anything to support it for the simple reason that they're not supporting it any more GÇö it's no longer there; there is nothing to support. The mechanics is not there... the items that were produced by the mechanics that is not there any more are still there. So, yes... they are supporting a byproduct from a discontinued game mechanics. My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 227	Posted - 2014.04.16 13:45:00 - [15] - Quote Tippia wrote: Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: The mechanics is not there... the items that were produced by the mechanics that is not there any more are still there. So, yes... they are supporting a byproduct from a discontinued game mechanics. GÇªand they items work the same as any other blueprint, so there is nothing outdated that is given special support at the cost of something else. Do they use same ME levels as default invention - no. Do you have a chance based mechanic to get the copy - no. Can you obtain them through gameplay - no. If you can not obtain them through gameplay, are they seeded by NPCs on the market - no. That does not look the same to me. Quote: I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways here: either they mechanics are supported and still around, or discontinued and thereby no longer supported. There is no middle ground; there is no mix; there is only one or the other. Exactly what I'm saying. We are in the limbo of the middle ground right now. My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 227	Posted - 2014.04.16 13:53:00 - [16] - Quote Tippia wrote: Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: Do they use same ME levels as ~~default invention~~ other BPOs - yes. Do you have a chance based mechanic to get the copy - no, same as other BPOs. Can you obtain them through gameplay - no, same as other BPOs. If you can not obtain them through gameplay, are they seeded by NPCs on the market - no, but they are still available on the market if you want to buy one. Looks very similar to me. T2 BPOs do not have the -4/-4 level of T2 BPCs and you know that I was referring to it. T2 BPOs can be copied with 100% success rate, unlike inventing a T2 BPC to get a T2 copy. T2 BPOs are not available on the NPC market, with a fixed price that serves as a ISK sink, available in unlimited quantities and at all times like T1 BPOs are. My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 228	Posted - 2014.04.16 14:39:00 - [17] - Quote Weaselior wrote: why is this stupid t2 bpo discussion here these changes are entirely irrelevant unless the copy time for a t2 bpo is significantly lower than the current build time; even if it is slightly faster unless there's queueing coming in another devblog the slightly increased potential supply will be counteracted by the increased need to install new jobs, leaving the thing idle Exactly for that - a feedback to CCP to not significantly lower the copy time below the current build time Halia Thorak wrote: Bad Bobby wrote: Weaselior wrote: why is this stupid t2 bpo discussion here We have insufficient details on the actual changes for any reasonable discussion. So an unreasonable discussion broke out instead. This, If they would of just given us numbers we would of been able to not just talk speculation Exactly why they didn't give the numbers first - speculations in a feedback thread can reveal potential downsides and provide pretty good feedback. My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 228	Posted - 2014.04.16 15:48:00 - [18] - Quote Gizznitt Malikite wrote: CCP: One thing you didn't address in the changes to R.A.M. is what you will do with existing R.A.M. modules in the game. I assume you will simply multiply all the current R.A.M. mods in game by 100 to keep the balance, but would like confirmation. I bring this up, because I have 1000's of R.A.M. items that I use for production, which represents 100m isk worth of materials. If you are NOT going to alter the number of R.A.M. I have to be equivalent to the new R.A.M. consumption/production rates, then I can simply plan to use up all the R.A.M. I have no problems. I simply would like clarification so I can plan appropriately. They will be multiplied everywhere: Hangars, cargoholds, market, contracts,... My signature got stolen (o.0)
Antihrist Pripravnik T-AFK and counting 230	Posted - 2014.04.16 15:58:00 - [19] - Quote Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: Gizznitt Malikite wrote: CCP: One thing you didn't address in the changes to R.A.M. is what you will do with existing R.A.M. modules in the game. I assume you will simply multiply all the current R.A.M. mods in game by 100 to keep the balance, but would like confirmation. I bring this up, because I have 1000's of R.A.M. items that I use for production, which represents 100m isk worth of materials. If you are NOT going to alter the number of R.A.M. I have to be equivalent to the new R.A.M. consumption/production rates, then I can simply plan to use up all the R.A.M. I have no problems. I simply would like clarification so I can plan appropriately. They will be multiplied everywhere: Hangars, cargoholds, market, contracts,... While this makes sense, and I'd assume that would be CCP's plan, I did not see this explicitly stated. Did I miss a dev comment proclaiming this? Link: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4474706#post4474706 My signature got stolen (o.0)